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@Kelvin A Hill : the way you talk and throw stones in a sin-free manner; your own work must be flawless and I bet you deliver perfect quality on your projects time and time again... right? 🤩🌟👏
I would love to work with you one time if that is the case! Must be so awesome. 🤓💖
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@DA Don't agree with some peoples tone in this post and I do appreciate that there is work being done, however, there is much frustration.
Can the product team be more specific on the exact actions they are planning to take and provide an indication of major milestones you expect to hit? "more to share... in the coming months" is not really an ideal plan of action.
For more specific feedback points and serious critique from a user who knows what's what, please do review pretty much all of @Tom Crowley 's comments across the Community on the subject of New Editor. He's doing a stellar job of expressing a lot of the angst we're all facing and in a constructive manner. 👍😀
Atlassian's customers pay for a service. We have built a solution based on the products we pay for. To have the rug pulled out from under us by withdrawing functionality on which we operate our business is unwelcome and unprofessional.
By your response, I get the impression that this is they type of action you condone. As such, I wouldn't love to work with you. Ever.
When Atlassian changes from being a commercial operation to a charity, I'll heap praise upon them until the cows come home. Until then, the ugly truth is that the roadmap is counterproductive.
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@Kelvin A Hill : your previous comment didn't have a point to dodge. But at least my sarcasm finally got something constructive out of you for once:
@DA the below is very serious. I hear this a lot at the Community Events I both run and attend:
"Atlassian's customers pay for a service. We have built a solution based on the products we pay for. To have the rug pulled out from under us by withdrawing functionality on which we operate our business is unwelcome and unprofessional."
@Andy - PTC Redundant Sorry for the confusion. You wrote, "your own work must be flawless and I bet you deliver perfect quality on your projects time and time again." My point about dodging the issue is that the focus of this and other threads is about Atlassian failing to deliver a product for which its customers are paying. It is irrelevant whether Atlassian's customers deliver on their own commitments. That is an issue between us and our own customers, and I would hope that those of us who work in professional enterprises treat our customers with less contempt than we are receiving from Atlassian.
It doesn't matter one iota whether I'm a tax-dodger or if I write elegant code. It is about Atlassian forcing out a product that will cause huge problems for its paying customers. So when our polite comments and objections are ignored or sidestepped, it is only natural for us to resort to being less polite in the hope of getting someone's attention rather than being fobbed off.
And when someone tells me I shouldn't give Atlassian a hard time because they're trying their best, I want to slap them and ask, "Do you realise what you're saying?"
Atlassian has most of its customers over a barrel. We have been suckered into investing in a product that is now effectively being withdrawn without a suitable replacement or even any practical way of exporting our content to use with another supplier—so you'd better believe I'm angry, which is why I'm dispensing with the pleasantries.
My argument isn't with you, so I apologise if you were offended by my comments.
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And, as a Community Leader am dealing with the very same anger face to face at events, with people treating me in really unpleasant ways, as if I am an Atlassian.
As you can see from my request to DA, I do not defend Atlassian nor ask people to not give them a hard time. Being unpolite has certainly gotten everyone's attention! 😉😉 Now it's time to tone it down.
What I would like to see, and this is the same request I give to users at events, is serious discussion whereby the Atlassian team get challenged rather than ridiculed. Note my previous message to DA: Can the product team be more specific on the exact actions they are planning to take and provide an indication of major milestones you expect to hit? "more to share... in the coming months" is not really an ideal plan of action. That is most certainly not rude nor defending them.
So let's tackle the ball not the player, keep the tone professional and get Atlassian providing us updates that can actually help us! 😀
@Andy - PTC Redundant You are proposing that we should all be cordial and reasonable. That sounds perfectly fine and dandy, except that Atlassian is threatening to remove my ability to provide an established solution for my customers very soon.
By so doing, Atlassian has sent me into panic mode. Have you ever tried to be calm and rational when someone is holding a gun to your head and threatening to pull the trigger? No, me neither, but the point is that Atlassian has already begun the process of withdrawing the old editor. Go ahead and create a development site; you'll find the old editor has gone.
I'm staring down the barrel of a loaded gun, and the person holding it has a twitchy finger. Within weeks (according to Atlassian's intended timescales), I will no longer be able to produce the documentation I am being paid to supply (and which I have been supplying using the old editor for over five years).
I'd love to remain level-headed, but Atlassian's intransigence is making my job impossible. From the comments of others, it is clear I'm not alone in this difficult position.
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@Andy - PTC RedundantThere's a saying: "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Well, I say, DO let the good be the enemy of the junk.
None of us here, I would imagine, think anything we do is perfect. Have you really missed the point so badly that you think we want this product to be perfect? All we ask is that its hallmark features, I don't know, work at all maybe? Like they used to. Is that too much to ask?
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@Kelvin A Hill : "Have you ever tried to be calm and rational when someone is holding a gun to your head and threatening to pull the trigger?" - actually, yes. Not for Atlassian New Editor reasons, but some of my projects have gone so horribly not according to contract that I have been to court and had to testify when clients pul triggers... but that does not excuse Atlassian, nor help your situation, just trying to show that I sympathise in your situation.
Have you discussed all of the impact this has had on your business with the Account Manager from Atlassian responsible for your account?
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Yes = hallmark features should damn well work, especially like they used to. So much changed, and not for the better in the eyes of us hard core users.
No = it is never too much to ask, ever! You are so right.
I think if you read through my comments on this article you'd see that not only do I really get the point, not only do I sympathise with everything stated, but by challenging Atlassian, I am actually trying to help you guys in holding them Accountable for coming up with proper resolutions and telling us their plans.
@Andy - PTC RedundantMy apologies, I took one of your comments -- the self-described "sarcastic" one out context. I clicked on one of my email notifications without realizing it wasn't the last one.
@Andy - PTC Redundant I am relieved to hear that you were at the business end of a figurative gun rather than an actual one.
Further to your question, yes, I discussed the impact of the editor "lite" functionality during a 30-minute meeting with @Avinoam Zelenko, Principal Product Manager for Confluence Cloud. He was perfectly pleasant—and under different circumstances (and time zones), I might even have invited him for a chat over pizza.
Sadly, I came away with the impression that the obstacles facing Atlassian's customers account for very little in the grand scheme of things.
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@Kelvin A Hill Good to hear but sad to know that you came away with the same impression as myself... that's why my company keeps demanding those talks and seek out that accountability until we get it !
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I just want to see Community filled with the type of constructive criticism and challenging talk that will really force Atlassian to finally tell us what their plan of action is... not just that they've heard us or reviewing the feedback. Actual action!
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@Andy - PTC RedundantYou don't need perfect work to throw stones... you just need much better than Confluence Cloud's editor. I can guarantee you I've never signed off on something that bad.
One matter I find hugely frustrating is that there is no central thread or whatever where all the glaring I-can't-believe-that's-not-working bugs can be reported. Creating an individual bug report for each of at least a dozen image-insertion-and-placement errors I found in just a few minutes of testing seems like a futile exercise that serves only to keep the spotlight firmly away from the bugs. I simply don't believe anyone at Atlassian will pay attention to them—else there wouldn't be unresolved issues in the backlog that date back almost 20 years.
If the editor were being introduced as an alternative content-creation tool, I'd say, "sure, fine, whatever. Take your time. Knock yourself out." But this is the new editor, and Atlassian means for us all to adopt it—warts and all. Given a choice, I think I'd rather eat my own stools.
Equally frustrating is that I reported a selection of image-related bugs in these feedback threads (to demonstrate that we aren't talking about isolated issues—there are lots of them), only to discover that one was magically/quietly fixed while the others endure in all their ugliness.
If I had the nerve to release something to paying customers that was inexcusably full of bugs, I would at least have the decency to offer a suitable route for said customers to report back the plethora of errors they encountered—and route in which the customers could have some confidence.
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@Kelvin A Hill I've tried to raise this with them too, as have others, but to no avail. They shouldn't expect users to do this level of testing for them, and raising a ticket for each tiny thing is not an efficient use of time - particularly when the editor is consuming more time anyway as we try to work out how to use it.
Them closing threads or focusing on different ones doesn't help. I get that the main one we all used was very long and contained a lot of... frustration, but at least there someone could go through it and pick out bugs from it. I did it before the focus group and got a big old list. Heck, I even sent it to them.
@Kelvin A Hill, regarding your idea on a central thread. One thing I found useful, and still do, is that Atlassian created a parent issue in JAC for all issues related to the "new issue view" (JRACLOUD-70555 ). This allowed me to more readily find the latest list of issues and status by simply remembering one issue. I wonder if they have done this for the new editor and will have a look. While I don't think all of the editorial comments need to be captured in JAC (better suited for the Community discussions) I do think it would be hugely beneficial to have all JAC issues under one container at least in the 'early days'.
If anyone already knows of the existence of such please post here and if I find it I will do the same. If not I will suggest such.
@Jack Brickey I decided to take matters into my own hands and create a discussion post with a familiar title.
In the post, I have documented the steps to demonstrate nine bugs with image functionality. I stopped at nine because Confluence Cloud stopped functioning (in edit and create mode).
If you'd like to have a look at an alarming collection of image-related bugs in the new editor, do the following:
Click on the document: What's New in Confluence Cloud – December 2019 Edition
Take a look at the bugs and wonder who signed off the image functionality. Those aren't all the bugs of course. Those are simply the ones I found really quickly.
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December 4, 2019 edited
@Kelvin A Hill sorry but indeed, the name might be confusing to people and we do need to change it.
ETA: I took a closer look and the thread was clearly created in bad faith. Please continue to raise bugs in JAC, and we'll stay in close touch with the product team about upcoming fixes.
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