I wonder if the non-Cloud versions is much better, though.
The Server option is absolutely awesome and offers many people exactly what they need. On-Premise software always offers much wider customization ability and better control. For example, you can stay on a given version as long as you want and decide yourself when you want to upgrade. No sudden rollouts of features that you don't like, or similar things. Of course this comes with the downside of managing and operating your deployment yourself, which is generally more expensive.
From a feature perspective, the Server option is also much more polished and offers more and better apps than the Cloud option, which is mostly just due to it being older. I guess one could kind of see the Cloud offering as still being in its days of infancy, but Atlassian seems to be heavily investing into it, much more than into Server in fact. So if you're in it for the long run, you can be sure that the Cloud version will only get better and reach the same level of quality (or even overcome) the Server option at some point.
I'm not looking to pick arguments here, but I don't think that you can "be sure" that the Cloud version will only get better. The Cloud editor was, I think, fairly similar to the Server editor until the new Fabric editor was released, which was a clear step back in terms of functionality and intent. Atlassian's investment into it so far has resulted in a buggy and feature-deprived editor, and they have repeatedly stated that certain elements are not going to be migrated from old to new.
You would hope that eventually it will, but they are taking it down a different path with the WYSIWYG editor, and the intent seems to be that WYG is What We Give You. Customisation appears to be something we are not going to get. "Better" is incredibly subjective here. Their better is not my better.
And decade old bug reports suggest that the "long run" is going to be a very long run indeed. And if you don't like the direction, then it's not going to be worth the wait.
With regards to the apps, users are kind of at the mercy of the developers again here. What incentive is there for plugin companies to develop for Cloud at the moment? It's a simplified editor. The users who love it, or profess to, probably don't need any extra functionality. The users who would want to expand and pick up various plugins are probably the same ones that expect a better level of functionality from the core editor.
I wanted Server, but was given Cloud. I could almost have made the old editor meet my needs with minimal plugins, the new editor actively makes things harder and means it's not worth bothering with the plugins.
You would hope that the Cloud version will get better, but it's not guaranteed.
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November 20, 2019 edited
I agree with your statement about the new editor being a step back in it's current state. However, chances are it's not going to stay like that and I'm sure all the uproar in the community has certainly been noticed by Atlassian.
In regards to apps there are certain non-monetary incentives for vendors, such as the higher tiers of the Top Vendor Program requiring a Cloud version of their most popular app. Also, during developer events like AtlasCamp and AppWeek the focus is always on Cloud and Server only gets very little attention, if any at all.
The reason I'm positive about Cloud becoming better over time is the fact, that Atlassian has already pulled off building amazing products more than once. They have experience with it. However, it sure won't happen tomorrow or next week. It's probably going to take a few years. Building good products needs time. Until then you're free to vote with your purse. :)
I wonder if the non-Cloud versions is much better, though.
I was a user of server for 12 years, and it was a solid product. It was a pleasure to use. We migrated to cloud for practical reasons (no more backups, accessible off-site, etc.) but I knew almost immediately that it was a mistake when my blog post macro didn't work.
Over those 12 years we used server, I made a blog post every day as an activity log, and I was using the built-in blog posts macro to render every single post with all content on one page so I could easily and conveniently use the web browser's "find" functionality to search for content. I have over 3,500 posts. It worked beautifully. As soon as we moved to cloud, though, it never worked. It times out. On server, we could configure the time-out threshold, but we have no control over that on cloud because "it would adversely affect other users".
(Very) long story short: I reported this in Jan 2019 and an "issue" was opened, but it was addressing the wrong thing. It was finally "resolved" in Sep 2019 but it didn't fix my issue. So another issue was opened, and since it's such a narrow case (indeed, it only has one vote "gathering interest" -- my vote) I have no hope it will every be fixed. (I would really appreciate your votes at the above link if you would feel so inclined).
So please know that server is SOOOOO much better than cloud.
@Kelvin A HillYes, Monique said up thread that she removed my post because it was disparaging of their product team. All I said was [bad thing]. Too real, I guess.
(It's not letting me tag people for some reason...)
I didn't know that about the apps. Thanks. Has the new editor (and I think a new back-end platform?) changed the way apps need to be developed for Cloud?
As for your optimism, I wish I shared it. Nothing I've seen so far suggests a bright future, and there's only so much confidence you can place in track records. Still, give it five or ten years and they might have a shinier version of what they had with the old editor...!
I'm not sure we'll be on Cloud long enough to get the benefits, but for the sake of all the other users I've spoken to who have established wikis and practices using the old editor that no longer work, I hope you're right.
@Tom CrowleyDo you know of a viable way to export content to another platform? I have the feeling we're stuck with Confluence because we have a ton of content there.
The thing that is so mystifying to me is that Atlassian already knows how to deliver great products. Its lofty management gurus must truly believe that the outspoken comments here and in so many other threads are simply the ramblings of a few misguided users who haven't yet caught the vision of a functionally impoverished future living in Bugsville.
What I'd really like to do is [redacted] and then take a [redacted] to their [redacted] until they [redacted].
@Rory Apperson I don't I'm afraid. We've only just moved to it. Their native export feature is only designed for stuff that's going to be reimported into a different Confluence instance. We need to sort our internal knowledge base out before we start moving it, so I reckon we're a few years away still. We're also looking to integrate it with a ticketing system and community provider, so I think we're going to find one solution that provides it all.
@Tom Crowley I haven't been blocked; I added the "redacted" text myself for comedic effect. Mind you, if I had written what I'd like to write, it would genuinely have been moderated.
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November 20, 2019 edited
I don't actually want to start suspending accounts or shut down this conversation, but I will do it. Many of you have already been warned once but to be completely clear: disparaging Atlassians, the product team or the community is not okay. Keep the conversation constructive and focused on the product, and you'll be fine.
@Monique vdBThe thing you keep changing in my comments is not disrespectful or rude; it's simply critical of your product team. Its purpose is to demonstrate the mood of one of your users, to show how upset we are at these things. I can understand completely if comments were threatening or insulting, but that is not the case (with mine). Your efforts to soften the tone of something I'm legitimately very angry about is not appreciated.
That is the distinction. Rest assured, your anger and frustration are coming through even without attacking the team, who are hard-working human people.
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@Monique vdB I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm also a hard-working human person, and I can understand the frustration in the comments, not just in this thread, but in the many others that address these changes. Some of the comments do seem like piling on, and some might be considered personal, but I'd ask you to consider the role you all have had in shaping the reactions and comments you're seeing here.
Most of the responses I've seen from Atlassian seem robotic and completely without empathy. I've seen no concrete explanation why these changes were made and very little acknowledgement that mistakes were made.
Being directed, constantly, to vote on issues, log issues, and further explain how we want this product to work, seems quite the opposite of what I'd expect from a company that supposedly prides itself in its no BS philosophy and not f*cking the customer (your words, I certainly wouldn't have chosen that language if it was my company). It feels very passive-aggressive at this point: "Oh, we're very sorry you feel this way, please spend your valuable time to improve our product by doing the following: Vote on issues (that you won't really know are gaining traction or not), or create a new one (which might be a duplicate of another issue, in which case what you're really doing is just adding confusion for other users which issues to vote on and watch). Maybe (or maybe not, but you'll probably never know) something will change."
The most infuriating thing, and something that seems very hostile to me, is that some old features (expand in a table, for example) are apparently now on their way back, but will take months to implement. Then why remove them in the first place? Why put users through this experience at all?
It's difficult enough to get used to the new editor, understand how I can have my work not be affected by these (sometimes) ridiculous changes, and also having to explain the changes to my team.
But my even bigger frustration is the lack of empathy Atlassian has shown in addressing the concerns that are brought up by hard-working human people like myself and other members of the community.
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November 20, 2019 edited
@ShengXing_ChiThanks for your question! We're actively rolling out the new page comments experience to all Confluence Cloud customers now, so if you don't yet have it please be patient you will have it in the next few weeks.
In the new page comments experience there are multiple ways to access the date feature with a keyboard command. The "/" command will pull up a menu that allows you to select date as a feature. You can also type "/date" which will bring up that menu with a focus on the date feature. Finally, typing "//" will bring up the date feature.
@Dan WinklerYou said it perfectly. I'm frustrated that I've been using a product for 12 years only to have features ripped away, and I have to vote and get others to vote, just to bring them back. For some features, this will sadly never happen because they won't get enough votes.
Why did we need a new editor? I was really, really, REALLY happy with the old one.
What would you think if you worked for a company and they said, "we're moving to a new building" but when you got there, there was no kitchen like the old place and the sinks didn't work in the bathroom, but your company said "sure, but look at all of these emojis you can use now!!" and "well, if you want the sinks to work or to have a kitchen, you're going to have to vote for it, but we most likely won't listen"
I tried to add a comment earlier, but the Add button basically stopped working, so I've had enough.
I applaud the folks who continue to give feedback lie the excellent post by @Dan Winkler , but I get the sense this is like commenting to a brick wall.
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